tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post4255599284951568336..comments2024-03-17T13:33:13.968+01:00Comments on Pivní Filosof - Beer Philosopher: The Globalised TerroirPivní Filosofhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-4995615278101771722011-10-06T14:15:53.688+02:002011-10-06T14:15:53.688+02:00Of course that terroir, to a certain extent, isn&#...Of course that terroir, to a certain extent, isn't immutable, process and tastes change and so do the products that are made with the former in order to please the latter, but if we are speaking about wine, there is a certain immutability (though perhaps that's not the right word). Wine making starts well before the first grapes are fermenting, it starts when choosing the place for the vineyard. That's not so much the case with beer, specially if your brewery isn't using well or spring water. I can start a brewery in my garage, and if things go well and the company grows, I can move to another town and continue there as if nothing had happened.<br /><br />The point I want to make with all this, regardless of my personal feeling towards the idea "beer terroir", is that I don't think you can say that an IPA made in Belgium doesn't have "terroir" or whatever, only because it doesn't fit into the current "beer mainstream".<br /><br />Ron Pattison told me once that Dreher in the mid 19th Century tried to start brewing Pale Ale, because they saw it at the time as a good option for industrialising their breweries. For some reason, it didn't work out and soon after artificial refrigeration made lager a better option. Imagine how different the beer landscape everywhere would be today if Dreher had succeeded, or what if people in Bohemia hadn't liked the Pilsner Lager or if Bass and Alsopp hadn't been successful businesswise with their IPA's, etc.Pivní Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-69186024289456404572011-10-05T23:26:50.219+02:002011-10-05T23:26:50.219+02:00Oh, absolutely. And we need only look to Ron Patti...Oh, absolutely. And we need only look to Ron Pattinson to know how many "traditions" we take for granted are actually modern myth.<br /><br />But is terroir immutable? Whether we're talking about cigars, wine or beer, all of these things are made by people, and even if we assume the natural and geographic qualities that affect flavor don't change over time, the ways we process and use those flavors definitely do.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551051953384066780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-61619877540912088732011-10-05T22:57:13.698+02:002011-10-05T22:57:13.698+02:00Greg, there is a reason why I avoid relating the c...Greg, there is a reason why I avoid relating the concept of "tradition" with the idea of "terroir", and it's because, if you look at history, traditions aren't something immutable, they change, evolve, or even disappear. Today, Czech brewers speak about "tradition" as a cornerstone of their trade, but the truth is that in the long, long, long history of brewing in the Czech lands, all these "traditional" beers, starting with the most "traditional" of them all, Pilsner Urquell, are a relatively new thing. I don't believe anyone here would have said, at the end of the 19th century, that lager beers were "traditional".Pivní Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-81950465721291433432011-10-05T19:43:14.451+02:002011-10-05T19:43:14.451+02:00I'd suggest that we separate terroir - which w...I'd suggest that we separate terroir - which would come from the characteristics of water and local ingredients in certain places - and authenticity to a tradition, which I think is more what Feinberg and company are speaking of. <br /><br />A brewery could have terroir, but it would be one that really is limited by its geography (as is the case with first growth bordeaux, for example). Being an inheritor of an authentic tradition, though, allows for truly Belgian style beer in, say, upstate New York.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551051953384066780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-29012922939616427692011-10-04T06:19:08.695+02:002011-10-04T06:19:08.695+02:00It's a good point, but on the other hand, that...It's a good point, but on the other hand, that's nothing new, either. A good example of this are the Porters (and even some PA's) that were brewed at some point in Germany, Scandinavia, and the Baltic States CZ and Slovakia, eventually, they became Baltic Porter, but at first they were inspired by a style that was popular at the time in another country that was exported to the region.Pivní Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-76342921989281763632011-10-04T03:22:24.300+02:002011-10-04T03:22:24.300+02:00One might ask whether this globalization of beer p...One might ask whether this globalization of beer production is ultimately a good thing for the consumer. It threatens to homogenize beer. For example, a number of breweries in Europe are beginning to make beers that clearly target American consumers (beers that are extreme or very hoppy). Even here in Tokyo where I live, the three most well-regarded pubs are awash in American West Coast IPAs or Japanese clones of American West Coast IPAs. Even my local homebrew shop is full of American hops with no domestic product to speak of.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-63901686127320989382011-10-03T20:20:20.180+02:002011-10-03T20:20:20.180+02:00I should have been clearer. I don't think Sam ...I should have been clearer. I don't think Sam Adams <em>Third Voyage</em>, the new 3 Cascade beers, expresses **** (a place holder for the word better for beer than terroir). <br /><br />And I agree that there's a difference between saying "we use the best quality hops" and that the beers are intended to express a sense of the place where those hops are grown. There are few of the latter.Stan Hieronymushttp://www.appellationbeer.com/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-27954802077270139612011-10-03T19:43:12.968+02:002011-10-03T19:43:12.968+02:00Stan, I agree with you on the choice of word. Not ...Stan, I agree with you on the choice of word. Not so much on the rest, though. Firstly, because quality in this case is not so much of an issue (and I agree on what you say about the Cascade from Argentina), you can have the best hops and still make crap beer. And about Sam Adams, isn't it a good example of a beer with "global terroir"? In a way, those beers aren't too different from those Ales from Scotland that used mostly Saaz hops back in the 19th century (though it's left to be seen what the intentions of the brewer are in this case)Pivní Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-11443765782107835272011-10-03T19:13:01.861+02:002011-10-03T19:13:01.861+02:00This discussion would be much easier if the word &...This discussion would be much easier if the word "terroir" weren't included because of the baggage that comes with it.<br /><br />But the fact is that Cascade hops grown in Oregon will taste/smell different than Cascade hops grown in Washington, in New Zealand, in England, in Argentina (the the last case because they are crap).<br /><br />If it brewer <em>chooses</em> to let the hops express themselves (as opposed to blending them with other varieties or perhaps Cascades from 3 continents - as Sam Adams is doing) then they may reflect that place.Stan Hieronymushttp://www.appellationbeer.com/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5042627331437123482.post-41776798769293980532011-10-03T15:21:17.592+02:002011-10-03T15:21:17.592+02:00Well said that man.Well said that man.Alistair Reecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15929927359428659775noreply@blogger.com